Some parents take their kids to Disney. Some visit Grandma in Boise every July. And some move their family into a small boat for most of the year. Justin Kelcourse, a real estate agent and father of two, shares with us how he and his partner manage to raise their family on a boat.
Some parents take their kids to Disney. Some visit Grandma in Boise every July. And some move their family into a small boat for most of the year. Justin Kelcourse, a real estate agent and father of two, shares with us how he and his partner manage to raise their family on a boat.
In Episode 4, Marc shares the top three most useful travel tips that he put to use on a recent family vacation with his wife and twin toddlers. Marc and Adam discuss vacation-planning strategies, what types of experiences may leave a lasting impression on your children as they grow, and which ones will disappear from their memory.
They welcome guest Justin Kelcourse, a successful realtor and owner of Kelcourse and Company, a division of Keller Williams Coastal Realty. Justin shares stories of his family's unique lifestyle that surely will result in lifelong memories: living for months at a time on a small boat in New England. In Justin's conversation, the guys touch on topics including:
• the allure of an alternative lifestyle
• financial security
• compact sized baby furniture
• living minimally
• encouraging and building self-reliance in your children
• building confidence and competence
• lack of technology/devices promoting more interpersonal connection
Adam and Marc round out the episode with a "The Grudge"-inspired installment of "So That's a Thing Now!" and continue to struggle with the proper send-off.
Links:
Kelcourse and Company
Beastie Boys "Ch-Check It Out"
Caspar Babypants
Spencer Explores the Universe
Adam: Welcome back to Modern Dadhood. My name is Adam Flaherty. I am a father of two daughters.
Marc: My name's Marc Checket and I'm a dad of twin boys.
Adam: Please know that we are not experts. We may feature experts from time to time, but we're just dads who love being dads and love gabbing about it with other people.
Marc: And we're just trudging through this life like all y'all out there.
Adam: What is Modern Dadhood, Marc?
Marc: Modern Dadhood is an ongoing conversation about the joys, challenges, sometimes there's challenges, and general insanity of being a dad in this moment.
Adam: That's right. I'm super happy and grateful to be here with you today.
Marc: Oh, you are? I can't say the same.
Adam: I am grateful to the folks, the dads listening to this.
Marc: I'm grateful for the dads out there as well. I'm grateful for you too, Adam. I was being, I was just doing a thing. I'm really grateful for you, man.
Adam: It's been a minute since we've seen each other. What's new?
Marc: What's new? You know, actually we just went on our very first family vacation, actually.
Adam: How'd it go?
Marc: Let me ask you a question. Have you, Adam, have you ever flown with children?
Adam: I have, yeah. Yeah.
Marc: You have?
Adam: We took the girls to Disney about a year and a half ago. They were one and four.
Marc: That's big.
Adam: And we were a little bit nervous, but that's a fairly short flight. Three-ish hours. It wasn't too bad.
Marc: They were one in four at the time.
Adam: Yeah.
Marc: Was that the first time you'd flown with them?
Adam: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And the only time.
Marc: And the only time, okay. Yeah, so we also went to Florida, Orlando, but we haven't told my kids about Disney yet, so they don't even know it exists. So don't say a word. Okay? But we flew. And we were, my wife and I, were really nervous about what that was going to be like because we have twins, we have twin boys. And at the time that we flew, they were 19 months old. We'd never even gone on a long car trip. So we just didn't know what to expect. And both of us were kind of preparing and sort of just getting ourself geared up. Like okay, like we're going to war. Like we were getting ourselves so ready, you know? Like we were running through plays every night, you know, "Okay, if this happens, we're going to do this and if they do this then we're going to do that. And if someone gives us this look on the plane, we're going to say this." And of course, you know as well as I do, you really can't plan for everything that's going to possibly happen.
Marc: So we did a lot of looking into tips and tricks and little parent hacks. And I thought that I would share three tips that we went with that worked pretty well for us.
Adam: So these are tips that you found when you were Googling, trying to prepare yourself?
Marc: Googling, talking to other parents, trolling Facebook groups. I say trolling like it's a bad thing. I don't mean it. I don't mean it like a bad thing. I'm not out there like, "You suck and I'm trolling you now. Stupid tip, you idiot." Yeah. Yeah.
Adam: You must've found a lot that was kind of common sense?
Marc: A lot of the stuff was really obvious. You know? It like, "Make sure you've got their favorite videos on your phone, ready to go," something like that, right? So of course we emptied our phones and did that kind of thing. But there was some, I guess, I don't know, I'll call them deep cuts that were in there that I didn't really think about. One of them was give your kids something to chew on during takeoff and landing. That's a way to counteract what's happening when your ears pop. I had no idea. I just, I didn't know that. I know that there are things that I do when I'm experiencing that, but I didn't know how to prepare the kids for it. So we had a box of raisins and it was just one raisin after another, just one at a time right into the kid's mouth.
Adam: That's a great one because probably instinctually we just kind of open our jaw or something to alleviate that pressure.
Marc: Yeah.
Adam: Great tip. Number two.
Marc: Number two was, we didn't take it this far, but one of the things that we heard we thought was really interesting was get a bunch of new toys. They don't have to be anything particularly special, but something that's brand new to them. And kind of wrap them in a way that they have to sort of interact with them, something that's kind of enticing, right? That they look at like, "What's this? This is for me? Oh my goodness. Can I open this? Why, thank you so much." My kids are really well spoken at 19 months old. And just if things start to go a little bit South, boom. Look, kid. New toy, check it out.
Adam: Checket out?
Marc: Check it.
Adam: That should be your podcast.
Marc: Checket Out with Mark Checket.
Adam: You can use all of the same stuff that we're using now and as soon as we're done recording Modern Dadhood, you roll right into episode one of Checket Out.
Marc: Let's just do it right now.
Adam: Your theme song is ... Beastie Boys already created a song for you.
Marc: It was meant to be.
Adam: Although they are notoriously sticklers for what they'll allow their music to be associated with.
Marc: Really? Let's be honest, as soon as they meet me, they're going to be like, "Whatever you need, dude."
Marc: One of the toys that we found that was like distracted them the best was little post it notes. Somebody, we read somewhere like just by a bunch of post it notes, they're cheap and your kids are going to just endlessly love them. And we were like, "We'll try it." And it worked. The only drawback now is that our entire house is covered in post it notes.
Adam: So did you draw anything on them or was it literally just they have something that they can peel off?
Marc: It was literally like, "Hey kid, have you ever seen one of these before?" And then it was, for the next 20 minutes, it was them trying to figure out what this thing was. And then when you show that, "Hey look, you can take one off and stick it on the seat in front of you," it was just, it blew their minds.
Adam: Did you do the flip book thing where you do a line on the first sticky note and then you adjust the line and you make it the spinning wheels so that when you flip it, it's a cartoon?
Marc: I did not.
Adam: Shame on you.
Marc: I'm not a good father.
Adam: Here I thought you were a creative individual and you didn't even make a flip book.
Marc: But that's why we're here. I mean, in all honesty, we're here just to become better dads ourselves.
Adam: Number three.
Marc: Everybody says bring extra clothes for your kids. Great, great. Bring extra clothes for yourself as well.
Adam: Now I can't think of the scenario. Is it because they're at the age where they'll still spit up on you?
Marc: No. The way that we did it was we only purchased two seats, so we had lap kids. And when you're trying desperately to keep them glued to your lap, you know, there's potential to experience a little leakage if there's such an issue that arises. And it happened to Jamie, it happened to my wife actually. She was with one of my sons. And yeah, I don't know if it was the pressure of the airplane or the pressure of just keeping that kid glued to the lap or what. But there was a little leakage she had to handle.
Adam: Thank goodness for the extra clothes.
Marc: And bring a plastic bag too, to put those dirty ass clothes in.
Adam: A Ziploc. Something that you can seal off and it's not going to offend other people.
Marc: Yep. And then just take it right to the pilot. Just knock on the door, and they'll take care of it. They throw it out the window. I think that's what they do.
Adam: How was the trip?
Marc: The trip was exhausting. It occurred to me, we were there for seven days, it occurred to me around day three that me, my wife, and our two kids had not spent 24 hours a day, day after day, all together basically ever since we came home from the hospital.
Adam: At least it was a change of scenery, right? It took you out of the office and it was something different for a week.
Marc: Yeah.
Adam: Our airplane travel with our girls, we did the whole Disney thing with them, it went as smoothly as it could have gone. My older daughter was, she was in heaven. She loved it, she had the time of her life. She felt like a total princess. That was nostalgic for me because I went there growing up, but I know that at four and a half she'll probably take away a memory. She'll have a memory of it when she's older. I also know that our younger daughter who was one, almost one at the time, won't have any memories of it at all. Your boys, 19 months, will have no memories of this family trip.
Marc: Exactly.
Adam: So as I think about vacations moving forward, I think about what is going to leave a lasting impression on my daughters? I would love to do Disney again. I would also love to take them to different parts of the world to experience things that are more cultural and more educational. But I think a lot about what's going to have a lasting impression on them.
Marc: You know, you could just kill two birds with one stone. You could just go to Disney and then go to the ride, It's A Small World, and then you don't have to travel anywhere in the world because that ride is exactly like the whole world, but all in one ride.
Adam: They will experience the different cultures of every continent over the course of one 45 minute ride?
Marc: Yeah. And you're going to save yourself a lot of time the rest of their lives.
Adam: And the music's great too.
Marc: Do they still have that ride?
Adam: Yeah, they do. And it's everything that you remember about it. And certainly Disney is fun, but it's not going to shape who they are or their interactions with people or the world moving forward. My friend Justin has found a way to do that, to create an experience for his children that will absolutely result in lifelong memories.
Adam: Justin Kelcourse, thank you for agreeing to be part of this today.
Justin: Thanks for having me.
Adam: I'm super psyched to have you here. Tell our dad listeners, who is Justin Kelcourse?
Justin: Oh, man, that's a tough question right out of the gate. I guess with reference to this, I am a person who has a partner. We have two children and we live on a boat is how we're known in the community.
Adam: You live on a boat. How the hell did that happen? How did that come to be? How did you decide that that's what you wanted to do?
Justin: Well originally, I was building. I was in construction and I was building essentially McMansions. and I was traveling a lot where I was building and I was thinking I should, instead of renting an apartment, I should do an RV, something that I could just be at the job site and then find a place to park it. And then that evolved into thinking about alternative forms of living. And then I decided I really wanted to live on a boat and I did it. I bought a boat and just jumped in.
Adam: So prior to kids, what was appealing to you about alternative forms of living?
Justin: I think it's always been adventure based. It's still kind of a Wild West type vibe, I guess.
Marc: When did you meet your partner? Before the boat thing?
Justin: No, I was living on a boat full time, year round. I'd probably been on my sailboat for three, four years, year round. And we met because of common boating. She liked to sail. When we started dating, one of her early on questions was did I want to have kids? And my answer was yes. But my question back was, "Do you want to raise kids on a boat?" And for her, it was a different journey to get. I was already living on a boat. And it was a definitely a journey for her even though she had that desire to transition into that lifestyle.
Adam: When you were asking that question of her in the back of your mind, were you at all nervous? Like what was going through your head? Were you thinking like, "when this comes out of my mouth it's going to sound insane?" Or did you know her well enough that you were kind of felt okay?
Justin: No, I definitely felt comfortable asking. I mean, I definitely felt like I had found the one. Finding a partner who was into boating was winning the lottery for me. Yeah.
Marc: At some point, you and Kim looked at each other and decided we're ready to have a kid.
Justin: Yep. Important to note there, I had a requirement at that point in time, and I think this really kind of ties into the podcast of the modern dad, is I did not want to be working day in, day out. So I said we had to get to a place financially where I would be able to spend significant time with the family.
Adam: So now your two children and my two are very similar in age. Five and a half-ish and ...
Justin: Yeah, I have a five and a half and a two and a half.
Adam: And a two and a half. So they're exactly the same age. In fact, our daughters were in preschool together and now are younger two, my daughter and your son are in the same class, which I love. And they all adore each other, which is awesome. So you give birth to Morgan.
Justin: Yep.
Adam: Now you've got a baby and you're living on a boat. What's that like having a newborn baby living on a boat?
Justin: I mean, for us it was normal. I think what a lot of people would look at as challenges were just kind of built into our daily life. So I mean, we thought nothing of coming home from the hospital to the boat. You're in very close proximity. So we weren't relying, we never had to rely on baby monitors or that sort of thing.
Adam: One of my personal challenges is just all of the stuff that we have, I need to shed it. You know, we kind of go through phases where the kids play with something regularly for awhile, they love it. And then when they kind of stop expressing so much interest in it, we kind of move it out of rotation and then eventually it goes or it gets passed on to somebody else. The stuff tends to drive me crazy. And I think one of the really nice things about living on a boat is that it's sort of minimalist. You're not dealing with all the stuff.
Justin: Yeah, we really, we did not have much baby stuff whatsoever. And I mean, we were pretty militant about not accepting gifts, essentially. The only thing we had was we had a very specialized teeny crib that we were able to order from Europe. They make like a very small apartment style crib that we had. And it was just a small place that we could put the baby down, where it would be confined.
Marc: I remember looking into that, actually, as well, looking into smaller cribs. It's a hard thing to find. We were doing it for a different reason. We had two kids that eventually were going to need their own cribs. And our rooms are not that big in our house and they get really, really small really fast when you're talking about butting up two cribs next to one another. So you had to go through a European company to find something like that?
Justin: Yeah.
Marc: That's funny.
Justin: And that was the only thing we ordered. She slept in a little basket next to our bed. And that's all we had.
Marc: Did you find that that was a difficult thing? Because like Adam brought up something that's kind of, I think maybe, I don't know, I feel like I'd take it for granted at this point, but like we were given a lot of stuff. And I'm thankful for it and I will always be thankful for the generosity of the people that was around, family and friends that were around us. But you know, we didn't have too much say in that. Obviously, you know. But it must have been a lot more of a conscious thing for you. When talking with friends and family, how did people respond to that at that point?
Justin: We were already well established boat people within our families. So they knew that they really couldn't buy us anything.
Marc: Okay. So there was some expectation there like, "Oh we know this guy's not going to ..."
Justin: I mean, they gave us things that we needed like diapers or gift cards for things that we were going to be using.
Adam: Well clearly it's had an impact on them because Otto, who's two, like I said before, he and my daughter are in the same preschool class and one of their teachers posted something recently, we have a private Facebook group that's just for parents of the kids. He posted that Otto proudly proclaimed, "I'm going up to the bow to get the mooring ball." I thought that was awesome. No other kid. You know, that language just doesn't come out naturally. What are you hoping that Morgan and Otto take away from this experience as they grow up?
Justin: I mean, I'd like them to have fond memories. And I think self-reliance.
Adam: What do you mean by that?
Justin: Well, in order to be a boater, I mean, you have to have a lot of skills. You have to be, you know, there's no plumbers at sea, so you're the plumber, you're the electrician, you're the boat mechanic, you're the maintenance person, you're the captain, you're the navigator.
Marc: The chef.
Justin: The chef.
Adam: The janitor.
Justin: Yeah. I mean, you got to do it all. And early on, living at the marina, I was really impressed by families that I would see that would come in really from all over the world that would be cruising. And the boat kids that I met, I mean, they'd had a definite noticeable presence to them of competence beyond their years as far as ability to just listen, complete a task, confident, happy people. And I really admired those families.
Adam: It seems like where other parents may have to look for teachable moments or make a specific effort to teach their kids something, you've put your kids into a scenario where they will just naturally learn to do things.
Justin: I mean, I think so. And I think part of that is not ... Yeah, I don't have to look for the teachable moments, but we're also in such a small space that they can't avoid them. You know? Where I think in traditional setting, dad's in the garage fixing the car. And that's happening in the garage and there's plenty of other space and other activities to be doing. There's no avoiding me going in the engine room and working on something. It's going to disrupt. I got to lift the hatch up in the living room or lift the stairs up going down to the galley and crawl in there, you know? And they're so excited when that happens. They want to be in the engine room and they want to check it out and Otto brings his tools in. And I feel like what we're doing is modern in the way we have a simpler life with release of stuff and everything. But that's also not modern. That's almost like going back in time and I'm using a modern approach to be able to do that.
Adam: Now that your kids are at an age where they are just naturally becoming more social beings, are there any challenges that they've faced? Any challenges with this way of life?
Justin: Not that I'm aware of, but it is something that I've given thought to and I'm not sure if it's going to present itself as a challenge or not. In general, I think kids like stability and they like structure. And I was wondering is uprooting my kids every six months the right thing to do? And I went back to my childhood and thought about us going to our camp every weekend. And for me, that wasn't uprooting. That was just what we did. And I knew nothing else. I didn't feel like I was being taken away from anything. It was what we did, you know, we were here and then we'd go to the camp and back and it was enjoyable. So I'm hoping that it stays that way for them, like they just don't think anything of it.
Adam: It seems like one of the main differences between an experience like this that is more semi-permanent where half the year they're living in a scenario that might be considered nontraditional, that it is less about those one off memories.
Justin: Yeah, there's a family aspect, I think, that's potentially going to be stronger. To your point with your vacation, the fact that you spent ... You realize all of a sudden you hadn't spent 24 hours a day. We left the dock and we cruised this summer for about a month. So we were gone. In that month, we went to, I think, 19 different ports, islands, anchorages, and whatnot. But we were together 24/7 within like a couple hundred square feet of living space for a month. And even though it's our goal to cruise with our family, after that, my partner kind of was like, "I don't know if that's what I want to do." And we had to revisit what were some of the challenges? And some of the challenges where the huge amount of time that we did spend together, which I want, but we do have to figure out a way to break it up too. So next summer we have a different plan. We're going to try to spend at least three days at every spot so that we can alternate having time by ourselves in a location.
Adam: Right. You can't just get to an island that you've never been to and look for a babysitter. Right?
Justin: Right, right, right. But we realized that we suffered from fear of missing out. Like I would say to give her a break because I'd been at the helm all day, we get to that island, we anchor, and I'd say, "Why don't I ... I'll bring the kids ashore. You can chill, read a book." But she'd have that fear of missing out like, well, no, I want to go to shore and check it out. You know? And then if you're always doing that, then you never get a break. So if we realize if we spend longer in each spot, there'd be time to go to shore, explore, come back, report about something cool, go check it out yourself or not.
Marc: One of the things that I really aspire to with your whole experience is just not being constantly distracted by the technology that's around us. And I know with your line of work in real estate that you need to have access to communication with people even when you're out on a remote island. But just the idea that my kids aren't going to be constantly asking to watch a show, they're not going to be just drawn to technology and there's an opportunity to put it away and just be present. That is something that we all need to do more.
Justin: Yeah. We actually, this month, that month, I've felt really proud as a dad because they had zero screen time for a month.
Adam: That's amazing.
Justin: You know. And we did a ton more artwork and reading and coloring and playing and exploring. I mean, all our time was taken up and there was no time for screen time. And also not really having the ability to. It's so convenient when you're on land. But when we're out, we didn't. I mean, I should put a caveat on there. There was two days that we were in a storm on an island and we told them that we had a surprise that that island allowed us to watch one movie.
Adam: The island has rules. Yes.
Justin: And we did let them watch one movie.
Marc: You have to respect the island's rules.
Justin: In that month. You know?
Marc: That's wild.
Justin: Little white lie, there.
Marc: Yeah. Yeah. The screen time thing is interesting. I mean, we're not on a boat and then my family, we're just in our house and our kids are home all day. At least right now, with the nanny. And so the TV is an ever present figure. And we try. We think it's really important to keep kids away from the screens, from the phones, and from the iPads and the computers and the TV as much as we can. And just, we want them to really build these human connections, these like real, actual connections that you make with people when you're face to face. But it is so easy. It's so easy to, in the heat of a moment, say, "You know what, that's it. Get out of the kitchen. I'm going to lock you in this room for 10 minutes so I can just get this one thing done." It must be, I don't know. I think it's really interesting that you're in a position where you don't have that as an option.
Justin: It was very helpful. This last trip, Morgan learned to play cards. So yeah, she got to a point where we were able to play a game that was entertaining to us as well. Because when we're underway on the boat, that's where the entertaining is a little more difficult because I'm busy at the helm and my partner, she has to entertain the kids during that travel time.
Adam: I know as a kid I would have loved to be able to just stop the boat and jump into the water and swim for a while. Do you do that a lot?
Justin: Yeah, we do. Yeah. Yeah. We swim, we swim a lot. I mean, we kind of have to. We limited showers.
Adam: Dual purpose ocean swimming. Nice. What does the future hold for your family in terms of boat living?
Justin: So we decided to not renew our dock space here next year. So we are going to be traveling on the boat for the entire next summer.
Adam: Wow.
Justin: Yep.
Adam: That is a big decision.
Justin: Yeah. We gave up our land based option here in town and we're going to be launched the day that school ends and we're going to come back right before school starts.
Adam: That's amazing. And truly inspirational. Really. Justin Kelcourse. So pleased to have you here. Thank you for doing this. Your story is super interesting and I just loved chatting about it.
Marc: Yeah, it was wonderful. It was really great to get a chance to learn about you and learn about your family. And I love knowing that there's such different situations out there than what I'm experiencing. It's been really great.
Justin: Great. Well thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
Marc: And you're headed out to a chili cook off right now?
Justin: I am.
Marc: Are you the judge, did you say?
Justin: No, I'm a contestant.
Adam: All right, you're a participant. Well, good luck. I hope you win.
Justin: I hope so too.
Adam: I think we should do a so that's a thing now. What do you think?
Marc: I agree. I agree with you. I happen to have one.
Adam: It's almost like you planned it.
Marc: Nope.
Adam: You bastard.
Marc: Nope. Nope.
Adam: What's a thing now?
Marc: Okay. So one of my sons recently has been doing a thing, which I'm going to demonstrate in a second, but he's been doing a thing that is really, it's been freaking me out. And in this one, I do not know how to approach him about stopping this thing or if I need to, I don't think I need to. But in a second, you'll understand why there are maybe moments where this thing could be dangerous. I'm not sure. Anyway, in this case it's only one of my kids. And what they're doing is he's sort of taking this weird half closed throat inhale as if he's, I don't know. It sounds like he's suffocating or choking on something.
Adam: I'm picturing The Grudge or something.
Marc: It's a little Grudge-esque. It's a little Grudge-esque, you're right. And what's weird about it is that he'll do it. It's just, I don't know, he's just exploring mouth sounds or something like that. I don't really know. I mean, I do that to this day and I'm 38 years old.
Adam: It's fun as hell.
Marc: It is fun. And so sometimes he just, he'll look at me when he does it too. He'll just look right at you like it's a normal thing, but I'm going to attempt to do it. It goes, this is what he's doing. He takes a breath in and he goes ... Like that.
Adam: It's kind of spooky.
Marc: ... A little bit like that. Like, he plans to do it. He's like, "I'm going to do the breathing in thing now," ... And he'll be looking right at me and it'll be right in the middle of while we're playing. But the thing that freaks me out is that sometimes he'll do it when he has food in his mouth. This morning we were eating yogurt and I'm like, "Okay, yogurt is whatever. You're not going to choke on yogurt." But it freaks me out that he's going to suck something back and really have an issue going on.
Adam: Well, you don't want yogurt going into the lungs. There's nothing good about that.
Marc: No, you're right. And I didn't really think about it like that until now. Now I'm really freaked out. But yeah, I don't know what to do about it because I just look at him with this look on my face like, "What are you doing that for?" And it, I don't know. It's also one of those things kind of like fingernails on a chalkboard to me a little bit that kind of just grates on me.
Adam: Yeah. Styrofoam is that noise for me, it makes me cringe.
Marc: Oh, I know that and feel it too.
Adam: But is he doing it because of the reaction that it gets?
Marc: Well, I don't, Oh, that's a good question. I don't know because I don't ... To me, I kind of feel like I'm not reacting, but I'm sure I am in some way.
Adam: Your face is definitely contorted, right?
Marc: Pretty sure I have like a cringe or like that, "Oh, Ooh" kind of look.
Adam: Did you just see a ghost? That's a thing at the Checket house now.
Marc: That's a thing now.
Adam: I think that that finds us at the end of this episode of Modern Dadhood. I would invite you, the dad listeners, to visit us at moderndadhood.com. Drop us a note, send us an email, hey@moderndadhood.com. Say hello, suggest a topic, tell us what you hate about our voices. Whatever it is, we want to hear it.
Marc: Tell us something that your kid's doing right now.
Adam: You can find Modern Dadhood wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you're the type of person who would be inclined to leave an Apple podcast review, no pressure, just know that it would go a long way for us. It would mean a lot to us. We would love it.
Marc: If you don't, I'm going to do this every episode. ...
Adam: Please subscribe to the podcast. Download, tell your friends about it. That's the thing that's most important to us. And you can find us on all the different social medias.
Marc: Until next time, arrivederci.
Adam: Thanks again.