Have you ever sat down to interview one of your parents? It’s not always an easy task—even for someone who interviews influential people for a living! Adam and Marc welcome guest Craig Melvin, father of two and acclaimed news anchor/personality on Dateline NBC and The Today Show, to discuss his new book “Pops: Learning To Be A Son And A Father.” Listen to the end of the episode for a round of “Confessions.”
Have you ever sat down to interview one of your parents? It’s not always an easy task—even for someone who interviews influential people for a living! Adam and Marc welcome guest Craig Melvin, father of two and acclaimed news anchor/personality on Dateline NBC and The Today Show, to discuss his new book “Pops: Learning To Be A Son And A Father.” Listen to the end of the episode for a round of “Confessions.”
Episode 49 opens with a brief reflection on the show; specifically, how our collective experiences as dads can share so many similarities and be so different at the same time. The guys share a bit about NBC anchor/personality Craig Melvin’s new book “Pops: Learning To Be A Son And A Father”, a book he began working on during a 2020 quarantine. For much of Craig’s life, he and his brothers didn’t have much of a relationship with their father Lawrence, largely due to his alcohol and gambling addictions. A 2018 family intervention cleared a path to recovery for Lawrence, and an opportunity to redefine relationships with his sons and grandchildren—Including Craig’s son and daughter. Craig shared candidly about his family, and the process of interviewing his father for “Pops.” Topics include:
• The inspiration for writing “Pops”
• The fear of interviewing a parent
• The importance of other “father figures” in Craig’s life
• The nature of addiction
• How the notion of “it takes a village” has shifted
• Craig’s kids’ relationship with their grandfather
• What “Modern Dadhood” means to Craig
The guys round out the episode with a new batch of dadhood “Confessions”.
[Episode Transcript]
Links:
Buy “Pops” at Powell’s
Craig’s digital series “Dads Got This”
Craig Melvin on Instagram
Red Vault Audio
Caspar Babypants
Spencer Albee
Stuffed Animal
Marc:
Adam Flaherty.
Adam:
Hi Marc!
Marc:
The last person I ever thought I would see here right now on my computer screen is Adam Flaherty. But here you are.
Adam:
In the flesh. In the pixels.
Marc:
Well, if you're here and I'm here, that can only mean one thing that this is Modern Dadhood, which is an ongoing conversation about the joys, challenges and general insanity of being a dad in this moment. I think we've already established that you're Adam Flaherty and you are a dad to two girls, seven and four.
Adam:
And you are Marc Checket. That is how you pronounce it, right?
Marc:
Yes. Yes.
Adam:
And you're a dad to two boys who are, if I remember, they're twins and they are not two any longer, they're three, but they're not yet four. So they're three.
Marc:
There's two of them, but they're three. Getting off to a good start here. In our last episode, we spoke to a Paul Ramsay. I don't know if you remember that.
Adam:
I was there. I remember.
Marc:
Mostly about his experiences as a son. And then we talked to Craig whom you'll hear from in a few moments. And it just struck me between the two discussions, how different our experiences can be, even though there are a lot of these common themes. And I think in both episodes, you'll hear our guests say some pretty similar things, even though their stories are quite different. Something that's becoming more clear to me the more dads that we talk to about their experiences is that there is certainly no one, single way to describe what it means to be a dad. And yet we hear a lot of common themes.
Adam:
Such as?
Marc:
The importance of communication.
Adam:
Open communication.
Marc:
Open communication with your kids.
Adam:
Such as fear of technology.
Marc:
That's a big one. I would say maybe the fact that a lot of us dads feel as if maybe we don't quite have any idea what's going on.
Adam:
A lot of cluelessness, sure.
Marc:
This is just an observation.
Adam:
We do hear lots of recurring themes from dads in different situations. Tell you one, dad, who's not a clueless dad.
Marc:
Who's that?
Adam:
Craig Melvin.
Marc:
I was going to say Craig Melvin.
Adam:
But instead, you were like, "Who's that?"
Marc:
I was just playing along. You see?
Adam:
"Who's that?"
Marc:
Is that what I sound like?
Adam:
And we did have a fantastic conversation with news anchor, television personality, author, father, Craig, Melvin, just the other day, which is going to be a really fun one to play back very soon.
Marc:
What are you talking about Adam? Hey, here's something I just realized? In short, I think there's an interesting difference between Paul and Craig's stories in that in Craig's he goes to pretty great lengths. So far as to write a book, to learn about where he came from and learn about his dad, to better understand who he is and why he, Craig, is the way that he is today. And goes on this quest, I guess.
Adam:
Exactly. And with Paul, Paul was okay letting that go because he had somebody that came in and filled that position, filled that role of dad. Didn't matter that he wasn't a blood relative. He's been Paul's dad for Paul's whole life. And in Craig's case, he did have this biological dad who for many years really wasn't the dad that Craig needed him to be. And then much later in Craig's life, he put in the work to examine that and to try to rebuild that.
Marc:
Yeah. And here, and in thinking about these common themes and these similarities that exist between maybe two seemingly different people or different stories, we're coming up on 50 episodes. I'm not sure if you've been keeping track.
Adam:
This is 49, right?
Marc:
This is 49. And here's what I think. I think a fun exercise for us to do would be to go back through our archive and pick out some of those little knowledge nuggets and do a deep dive through the archive to find some of these common themes and similarities and put together a little bit of a compilation insights, greatest hits, double disc set, compendium episode.
Adam:
Sure. We're going to put this out on CD?
Marc:
Thinking about it, maybe tape. What do you think about this idea?
Adam:
I think that sounds awesome. We'll get it in the works. Well, I'll tell you what Marc, we have some really honestly, genuinely, meaningful conversations on this podcast. And I feel so lucky that we get to have these conversations about fatherhood with so many different people from different walks of life. This conversation that we have with Craig Melvin, I think it's one of my favorites.
Marc:
I think it's pretty, it's up there for me as well. Although, I don't want to start any competition here, but I was just listening to the Winston E Scott episode before we started recording. And that guy was pretty... I mean, how do you compete with an astronaut?
Adam:
I don't think he counted.
Marc:
But having the opportunity to sit down and chat with with Craig was honestly, truly a pleasure, especially after having just read his book.
Adam:
I was going to say, you listened to the book, right?
Marc:
I did listen to the audio book. Thanks for calling me out.
Adam:
No, no, no! What I was going to ask is what is it like to spend hours listening to someone narrate their book and then immediately after, to speak with that person, to have a conversation with that voice that you were listening to? Was it weird?
Marc:
It wasn't weird, but it was as if I already. Also, the story is very personal. And so sitting down and talking with him, I just already felt like I knew him a little bit. And so I think the weird thing is that he certainly did not have that type of feeling sitting down and talking with me. It was fully one sided, but also I was listening to the book at 1.5 speed. So hearing him speak at regular speed was a little weird. I didn't expect him to be so much slower in real life.
Adam:
Let's waste no more time. And let's just get into the conversation with Craig Melvin.
Marc:
Roll tape. We are really excited to welcome Craig Melvin to the conversation. Craig is a massively popular news anchor and television personality appearing on Dateline NBC. I don't know if you've heard of that. Maybe the Today Show. I don't know if you've heard of that one. Craig's also a dad to a seven-year-old and a four-year-old and he recently released a book called Pops: Learning to be a Son and a Father, which is available worldwide. And aside from sitting down and writing a book about fatherhood, he's also explored the subject a whole bunch in his digital series for the Today Show called Dad's Got This, which is really fantastic. So Craig, welcome to Modern Dadhood. And we're really happy to have you on the show.
Craig:
No, Adam, Marc, thanks for having me. And thank you so much for spotlighting Modern Dadhood. Kudos to you guys.
Marc:
Our pleasure.
Adam:
So we want to chat a bit about your book. So Pops covers a lot of ground in exploring both your evolving relationship with your dad and your own role as a father of two. And an overarching theme in the book is obviously addiction. So I'm wondering if you can maybe share briefly or as briefly as you can summarize a book in a minute or two, who your father was to you growing up? And I guess the events that ultimately led to you deciding to examine that relationship for the book?
Craig:
That's a good question. It's a big question. My dad growing up, I think was probably like a lot of dads of his generation. He'll be 70 this year, but he was remote, distant. He did not emote a great deal. And he struggled mightily with the alcoholic addiction. And it was one of those things that, I mean, he spent almost 40 years as a mail clerk at the Post Office working third shift. So you worked that shift, during the day you're sleeping because at night you're working. So our schedules in general were always off. And he was a recreational beer guy. I mean, I remember growing up, always seeing him with a Budweiser in his hand or a cup of Budweiser in his hand. And then as I got older, he started drinking more. And then when he retired, about five years ago now, he had nothing else to do. He had not developed hobbies and interests primarily because of the shift he worked. And so the drinking that had already gotten pretty bad, it just spiraled out of control. And in 2018 he got in a fender bender that was caused by him being blackout drunk. And so at that point, my brother and I, and a few of us in the family, our concern was that he was going to hurt or kill either himself or someone else because he had started to do more of this blackout drunk driving. And so we staged an intervention with the professional, Adam. And at the age of 67, my father who had been a functional and then barely functional alcoholic for the better part of 45 years, gave it up after about eight weeks in an inpatient treatment facility. So the book is about, it's about his journey. It's about our journey, but it's also a celebration as you know. It's about the celebration of fatherhood in general, something that doesn't get celebrated as often as it should, in my opinion.
Marc:
Well, we agree with you.
Adam:
We agree.
Marc:
Yeah, enough that we started a podcast about it! So I'm sure that there was a lot of planning, preparation, maybe even a little meditation leading up to the interview portion of this and eventually the writing for Pops. And I wonder if you had any fear going in to the process at all?
Craig:
Sure. Absolutely. I mean, throughout the course of my career, I've interview presidents and actors and musicians and regular folks who've done extraordinary things, but I'd never interviewed a parent. And certainly about the subject matter that's covered in the book. So yes, I was nervous and fearful about the interview itself. And I say interview, it was actually several interviews, which is one of the highlights. I've got four and a half hours of my father just talking about his life and answering all of my questions. And so my kids and my kids' kids and their kids, if they so choose one day, they'll be able to hear their grandfather's voice. I didn't have that luxury. I never heard the voice of my grandparents, my grandfather, I should say, on either side, but I was nervous, but I was more nervous about the finished copy of the book and having him read that. And it was very important to me that before the editor signed off on it, before my wife, before she took a look at it, I wanted him to read the first draft. And I sent it down to him. I mailed him a copy and it took him about a week or so. And he called me up. He said, "I finished your book." I said, "Well, what'd you think?" He said, "Well, it's all there." "Is an accurate?" He said, "Oh no, it's accurate." He said, "Man, I'm impressed you're able to remember so much." And that was it. At that point Marc, obviously I wanted people to read the story and I want people to use the book as an opportunity to examine some of the relationships that they have with their parents and their children. But at the end of the day, I wrote the book for my dad and I wrote it for my kids and I selfishly wrote it, I wrote it for me. And, but I do think that there's something in there for everyone else too.
Adam:
Well Craig, in the book you described various other father figures in your life who really shaped who you would become as a father when your own father couldn't fulfill that role. I wonder, can you point to things that you do now or ways that you act as a dad, that you can link back to these men?
Craig:
That's a good question. And I should know that my father's work ethic and I write about it in the book. I got that from him. My dad at an early age, I mean he would, weekends holidays. I mean, the man, even when he was in the throes of his addiction was still working overtime and double time to help put food on the table. And then you find out years later he was doing it while he was drunk or hung over and it made it even more impressive. But along the way my Uncle James, I write about a fair amount in the book, my father's older brother. I think from him, I developed a genuine interest in politics and government. He worked at the Department of Labor in Washington. And from an early age, I remember being... I didn't know exactly what it was that he did, but I knew he worked for the government. And when you're seven, your perspective is obviously a little different. And he always drove a Cadillac. And so I came to associate Cadillacs with success and my uncle with success. And so we would always talk about politics and whatever was happening in government at the time. So I think he helped plant those seeds. And then years later I landed an internship in Washington. And I actually spent a month with him, which is one of the highlights of my life. So I got that from Uncle James. I think, I write about him, Uncle Pop is what we call him. His real name's Frank. And I'll be honest with you, I don't know why we call him Pop. There's never really been a full explanation of how that came to be his nickname. But my Uncle Frank helped me develop a genuine interest in sports. He played high school basketball, and I remember going to see him play when I was five or six. And I just, even from teachers and coaches along the way, I just, I think I picked up genuine curiosity from a few teachers that I was fortunate enough to have in high school. My AP government and world history teacher, for instance, really helped open my eyes to the world. I think one of the things I discovered while writing the book is that my dad's relationship with his father was virtually non-existent. He didn't even know who his dad was until he was almost a teenager. And so growing up, I was angry and resentful of my dad because I wanted him to be something that he wasn't capable of being. Forget the addiction. I mean, I wanted him to be something that he had not seen. And I think we do that from time to time in our society. We expect people to be certain things when they haven't been presented with examples of those things. And here I was expecting my dad to be Dr. Heathcliff Huxtable, and he barely knew his own father.
Marc:
Right. A few minutes ago, you brought up an intervention that you had with your father a few years back. And in the book, you used the word village to describe the people that came around at that time and rallied around him. And I just, in listening to the book, just that word stuck out at me. I thought this was such a great choice of words to use, village. And I just wonder, do you feel like parenting now has lost a little bit of that quote, it takes a village, sentiment.
Craig:
No question. No question we've lost a lot of that sentiment. I think that's for a variety of reasons. I mean, I don't think that social media has helped us with that. I mean, I think that we fall far too often now, we silo ourselves into these tribes and you live near like-minded people. If you go to church, you're going to church with like-minded people. Oftentimes your social circles are filled with like-minded people. I think it's probably always been like that to a certain extent, but I think social media has exacerbated it. So I think we've all become very suspicious of each other. And I think that because of that it's, "How dare you say that to my child?" Or, "Who do you think you are disciplining my son or my daughter?" When I was growing up, I grew up in South Carolina, and culturally, I think it's also a little different. You grew up a Black kid in South Carolina, you've got at birth, you've got 30 cousins, five of whom are really your cousin, the other 25 you just [inaudible 00:18:58] as your cousin. And then you go there. You're like, "Wait a minute. This isn't my real cousin?" [inaudible 00:19:03] And so you're born into this village. And I attribute a great deal of my success if you will, in life, to the village that I had. I grew up in a neighborhood, I write about the book. Neighbors on the left were white, next door to them is another Black family. On the corner, I can see it as I'm describing it, on the corner were the Chung's, a Chinese family, they owned a Chinese restaurant that was up the street. And across the street from them there was a Lebanese family, the [inaudible 00:19:36]. Next door to them, we had the Viscontis, an Italian family and then another Black family, and then another white family. It was just this hodgepodge of cultures but we were also... They all had kids around the same age. So we would be in and out of each other's houses. And that's how I grew up. And now with my kids, it's all, you've got to schedule a play date. Then you've got to pick up and drop off. And when I was growing up, there was no scheduling of play dates because you couldn't text and there's no... Kids just showed up at your door. You just say, "Oh hey, come on in, sure. Oh, you're sitting down for dinner? I'll invite myself in for a meal." So it was... And I don't know. And I know I sound like my father now. I sound like I'm almost 70, but there was something magical about that. And we've gotten away from it and I don't think we ever return to it. That's the sad part.
Adam:
So I wanted to ask, in the light of all of the work you've done on your relationship with your dad, and as a result of him committing to his recovery, will your children have a very different connection to him than you did for most of your life?
Craig:
They already do. My son's seven and my daughter's four, they don't know. They don't know the man that I write about in the book. My younger brother and I would joke about it now. It's actually become quite comical to see him, to see our dad interact with our children. He has six grandchildren now. And he'll do this thing where he'll FaceTime at two in the afternoon. And he's like, "Oh, just calling to see what the kids are up to." It's like, "Well, the kids are in school, dad." He'll say, "Oh, when they come home, just FaceTime. I just want to check in." And I'll put the phone up, "Hey Pop Pop." And he's asking about their day and they're talking sports and they're showing him stuff. And he was up here a few weeks ago. First time since the pandemic. They were up for about a week, my mom and my dad. And we went to my son's soccer game on Saturday morning. My son, full disclosure, not much of a soccer player. More enjoys the fellowship of the sport. But here we are 30 seconds into the game and Del, he scored one goal the entire season. This was the second to last game of the season and 30 seconds and dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, shoot, score. And my dad's yelling. He's cheering and hooting and hollering. And I'm screaming like the kid just won the green jacket at Augusta. And then shortly thereafter, I remember thinking in the moment, "I never got this." And I mean, I'm not bitter about it anymore. I was for a long time, but my kids are getting it. And I think that's the beauty of my dad's story. It's a story of redemption. It's never too late. It's never too late. And my dad's walking, living, breathing proof.
Marc:
I would love to ask this question because this too, a lot of the books really struck me. And I feel like though your life is so different than mine, your upbringing, you're from a different part of the country than me and a lot is different, but there was still so much that I could relate to. What I'm about to read, this quote that I'm about to read from the book, it's something that really struck me too, because I've had a similar realization, but you say it so succinctly and so clearly in the book. Early on, you say, quote, "When you have children, you become more aware of the sacrifices fathers make to provide for their families. I began to see the toll living took on my dad." And I just wonder, what was it like for you to have that realization?
Craig:
It was... Funny you should zero in on that, because that was one of my biggest takeaways after spending four and a half hours talking to my dad. I don't quote Oprah a lot Marc, but she said something a number of years ago that's always stayed with me. And I think she actually may have ripped it off from Dr. Maya Angelo, but that's neither here nor there. She said, "When we know better, we do better." When I was a kid and even when I was teenager, twenties, I didn't understand addiction. I didn't understand that it was a disease, an illness that doesn't just affect the person suffer with it, but also those around him or her indirectly. But if you really think about it, the way that society views addiction now, it's dramatically different than it was I would say five or 10 years ago. And you rewind 25 years ago, it's oh, "My dad, he's a drunk. He's weak. If he really wanted to, he could get that monkey off his back." And he couldn't, and he couldn't. And it didn't help that those around him were handling it the way that we were handling it, essentially writing him off and putting them in a corner by himself and just carrying on with our lives by and large. And so when I became a dad, I started to look at the world differently. I started to look at my own father differently. And I came to appreciate, even before I started writing the book but certainly by the time I was finished with book, I came to appreciate the sacrifices that he'd made. My dad worked third shift at a job he did not like, and was very open about his disdain. There's a part in the book where he's joking about going postal. And he remembers and that was a phrase. And he was like, "If people ever worked at the post office, they'd understand how something like that could be possible." And so here was a man who he didn't go to college. He grew up not knowing who his father was and he busts his hump so that his three boys could go to college. We all enjoy lives beyond our wildest imaginations. We have beautiful families. And it was part of the reason I also... Really, it was my dad after rehab started to do this thing where we would have conversations and he would start to cry. He would become very regretful. He would talk about how much time he had wasted. And I wanted my dad while he was able to appreciate it, I wanted him to understand that we've all gotten to a point where we forgive him and we understand what he was dealing with. So, yeah.
Adam:
That's wonderful. My last question for you, Craig, would be I feel like in ways with books like yours, with podcasts like this one, in some ways we're bucking a trend by speaking openly about and celebrating fatherhood. I wonder when you saw the name, Modern Dadhood come across your desk, what does that phrase mean to you or evoke in you?
Craig:
It's funny because when I heard about you guys, I was like, "Wow, what a great concept." I think it's funny because again, not to keep using the phrase, but I write about this in the book. Fatherhood has changed so dramatically I think and pretty quickly. The expectations of fathers. When I was, I can't speak for you guys, but when I was a kid, my dad, partly because of the addiction and partly because of his work schedule, he was rarely at things. If he was there, it was a graduation or a wedding or a funeral, or it was something big. And my kids, the expectation is that dad's always there. And if dad isn't there, there needs to be a conversation before said events so dad can explain that he can't be there because dad has to work so that he can help pay for the event that the child is enjoying. And so I think the expectations of fatherhood have changed so rapidly in a good way, I would contend, but modern dads, we're doing it all. We're doing it all. And it's not just the physical presence. It's the emotional presence. I read a book before we had our first child, and I haven't read any books since, because you realize you start reading those books and I'm not even sure whether the books are written by people who have children. But anyway, I forget the author, but he or she wrote that one of the best things you can do with your child is to just talk to them about important stuff, small stuff, silly stuff, just engage in the art of conversation at an early age. Just the give and take not. Not so they learn how to read faster or talk faster, but to develop the relationship because apparently the time comes where your children don't want to speak to you as much. But if you have laid that foundation and you've planted those seeds, it becomes a lot easier later in life when children become a bit more complicated than my seven and four year old.
Marc:
That's good advice. I just want to say Craig, that I think the book is really fantastic.
Craig:
Thanks.
Marc:
I really enjoyed it. And I think it's a great story. And I think that you tell it so well. And I know that I was listening to it, and I know that as I was listening to it, so many memories from my own childhood were coming back. My dad didn't have a Lemans, but he had an old tractor that he was constantly tinkering with that I don't think he knew what he was doing at all, but I was usually right there by his side with the job of having to hand over some tool.
Craig:
And you realize that one of the reasons your dad... One of the reasons my dad did it was just to get out of the house. That was his primary motivation. Even now I'll talk to him sometimes on the phone and I'm talking to my mom and I'm like, "Where's dad?" "Oh, I don't know. He's out in the yard." And I talked to him a few hours later. I'm like, "Pops, I talked to my mother earlier. She said you were out in the yard. What were you doing?" "Nothing, just outside."
Marc:
Just out in the yard. That's great. It's great.
Craig:
[crosstalk 00:30:28] Marc, thank you. Adam, thank you. I've enjoyed this.
Adam:
Dads and moms listening, you can buy Craig Melvin's book Pops: Learning to be a Son and a Father at your local bookstore. You can hear Craig himself narrate the book on Audible. And like Marc said, if you like Modern Dadhood, you're really going to enjoy Pops. And we just can't recommend it enough. Craig, I want to thank you so much for sharing a bit of your time with us to celebrate fatherhood. We want to wish all the best to you, Lindsay and your kids. Thanks again.
Marc:
Thank you, Craig. Really appreciate it.
Craig:
Thank you both. Thanks for having me. I enjoyed our time together. Be well. Take care guys.
Marc:
Adam, could you step into the chamber?
Adam:
It sounds like what you are telling me is that it's time for confessions.
Marc:
Confessions.
Adam:
Sometimes my kids will rattle off a whole string of words and without having even the slightest idea of what they said, I'll reply, "Oh, really? Cool."
Marc:
I'm at a stage in my life where show tunes are stuck in my head all day long. And I'm mostly okay with that.
Adam:
I once ate an entire sleeve of Tate's chocolate chip cookies in the car while my kids were in the backseat and I didn't offer a single bite. In fact, I never said a single word.
Marc:
Tate's gluten-free, chocolate chip cookies are far superior to the original Tate's chocolate chip?
Adam:
False.
Marc:
They actually are better. Periodically if I find crumbs on the floor, I'll just kick them under the couch. Even if it takes two or three kicks to get them there.
Adam:
Earlier today, my daughter opened her car door a little too much, and it left a small scratch on the car next to us. You're probably thinking I'm going to say that we didn't leave a note. We left a note.
Marc:
There was a spider in the house. I hate spiders. The boys saw me lunge toward it with a fist full of paper towel and fire in my eyes. They said, "Daddy, what are you doing?" I said, "Capturing it to set it free." Oh, I set it free all right. Free to death.
Adam:
Free to death. Oh, that was a really good one. That was a really good one.
Marc:
Confessions. Here we is.
Adam:
Dads and moms listening, you can find us at ModernDadhood.com on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, Amazon, all the other ones, wherever you like to listen. And wherever you do listen, please subscribe and leave a rating and review.
Marc:
Throw us in your Sony Discman. Oh, also, Hey, tell a friend would ya? Word of mouth. You have no idea. It's so super-duper important to us.
Adam:
We would love for you to follow us on social media. We're on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube.
Marc:
Maybe you tube, but I don't.
Adam:
Rude. And we'd be tickled if you went to ModernDadhood.com and bought yourself a t-shirt.
Marc:
Or a Modern Dadhoodie. Sometimes I take the Modern Dadhoodie and just ball it up and use it as a pillow. Take little quick catnaps on the floor when my kids play.
Adam:
That is a vision.
Marc:
You got to take the opportunities when they come along for those naps. Hey, while you're there at the website, you can drop us a line at, Hey@ModernDadhood.com if you'd like. Why don't you get... Here, I challenge a listener out there, shoot us some ideas for a topic. There's stuff we haven't covered yet.
Adam:
Thank you as always to our friends, Caspar Babypants, and Spencer Albee for the music in Modern Dadhood, to Pete Morse at Red Vault Audio for making us sound as good as we possibly can considering we are still largely recording in different spots. And thank you very much to Craig Melvin and his team for making this fantastic conversation happen.
Marc:
And thank you for listening.